Platonismo

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===== JOWETT: EUTHYDEMUS 298B-300D — CTESIPO RETOMA A CENA =====
Veja também: Coletânea de excertos da obra completa de Platão, na tradução de Jowett, indexados por termos relevantes

Ctesippus, here taking up the argument, said : And is not your father in the same case, for he is other than my father ?

Assuredly not, said Euthydemus.

Then he is the same ?

He is the same.

I cannot say that I like the connection ; but is he only my father, Euthydemus, or is he the father of all other men ?

Of all other men, he replied. Do you suppose the same person to be a father and not a father ?

Certainly, I did so imagine, said Ctesippus.

And do you suppose that gold is not gold, or that a man is not a man ?

They are not “in pari materia,” Euthydemus, said Ctesippus, and you had better take care, for it is monstrous to suppose that your father is the father of all.

But he is, he replied.

What, of men only, said Ctesippus, or of horses and of all other animals ?

Of all, he said.

And your mother, too, is the mother of all ?

Yes, our mother too.

Yes ; and your mother has a progeny of sea-urchins then ?

Yes ; and yours, he said.

And gudgeons and puppies and pigs are your brothers ?

And yours too.

And your papa is a dog ?

And so is yours, he said.

If you will answer my questions, said Dionysodorus, I will soon extract the same admissions from you, Ctesippus. You say that you have a dog.

Yes, a villain of a one, said Ctesippus.

And he has puppies ?

Yes, and they are very like himself.

And the dog is the father of them ?

Yes, he said, I certainly saw him and the mother of the puppies come together.

And is he not yours ?

To be sure he is.

Then he is a father, and he is yours ; ergo, he is your father, and the puppies are your brothers.

Let me ask you one little question more, said Dionysodorus, quickly interposing, in order that Ctesippus might not get in his word : You beat this dog ?

Ctesippus said, laughing, Indeed I do ; and I only wish that I could beat you instead of him.

Then you beat your father, he said.

I should have far more reason to beat yours, said Ctesippus ; what could he have been thinking of when he begat such wise sons ? much good has this father of you and your brethren the puppies got out of this wisdom of yours.

But neither he nor you, Ctesippus, have any need of much good.

And have you no need, Euthydemus ? he said.

Neither I nor any other man ; for tell me now, Ctesippus, if you think it good or evil for a man who is sick to drink medicine when he wants it ; or to go to war armed rather than unarmed.

Good, I say. And yet I know that I am going to be caught in one of your charming puzzles.

That, he replied, you will discover, if you answer ; since you admit medicine to be good for a man to drink, when wanted, must it not be good for him to drink as much as possible ; when he takes his medicine, a cartload of hellebore will not be too much for him ?

Ctesippus said : Quite so, Euthydemus, that is to say, if he who drinks is as big as the statue of Delphi.

And seeing that in war to have arms is a good thing, he ought to have as many spears and shields as possible ?

Very true, said Ctesippus ; and do you think, Euthydemus, that he ought to have one shield only, and one spear ?

I do.

And would you arm Geryon and Briarcus in that way ? Considering that you and your companion fight in armour, I thought that you would have known better.... Here Euthydemus held his peace, but Dionysodorus returned to the previous answer of Ctesippus and said : —

Do you not think that the possession of gold is a good thing ?

Yes, said Ctesippus, and the more the better.

And to have money everywhere and always is a good ?

Certain a great good, he said.

And you admit gold to be a good ?

Certainly, he replied.

And ought not a man then to have gold everywhere and always, and as much as possible in himself, and may he not be deemed the happiest of men who has three talents of gold in his belly, and a talent in his pate, and a stater of gold in either eye ?

Yes, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus ; and the Scythians reckon those who have gold in their own skulls to be the happiest and bravest of men (that is only another instance of your manner of speaking about the dog and father), and what is still more extraordinary, they drink out of their own skulls gilt and see the inside of them, and hold their own head in their hands.

And do the Scythians and others see that which has the quality of vision, or that which has not ? said Euthydemus.

That which has the quality of vision clearly.

And you also see that which has the quality Of vision ? he said.

Yes, I do.

Then do you see our garments ?

Yes.

Then our garments have the quality of vision.

They can see to any extent, said Ctesippus.

What can they see ?

Nothing ; but you, my sweet man, may perhaps imagine that they do not see ; and certainly, Euthydemus, you do seem to me to have been caught napping when you were not asleep, and that if it be possible to speak and say nothing — you are doing so.

And may there not be a silence of the speaker ? said Dionysodorus.

Impossible, said Ctesippus.

Or a speaking of the silent ?

That is still more impossible, he said.

But when you speak of stones, wood, iron bars, do you not speak of the silent ?

Not when I pass a smithy ; for then the iron bars make a tremendous noise and outcry if they are touched : so that here your wisdom is strangely mistaken, please, however, to tell me how you can be silent when speaking (I thought that Ctesippus was put upon his mettle because Cleinias was present).

When you are silent, said Euthydemus, is there not a silence of all things ?

Yes, he said.

But if speaking things are included in all things, then the speaking are silent.

What, said Ctesippus ; then all things are not silent ?

Certainly not, said Euthydemus.

Then, my good friend, do they all speak ?

Yes ; those which speak.

Nay, said Ctesippus, but the question which I ask is whether all things are silent or speak ?

Neither and both, said Dionysodorus, quickly interposing ; I am sure that you will be “nonplussed” at that answer.

Here Ctesippus, as his manner was, burst into a roar of laughter ; he said, That brother of yours, Euthydemus, has got into a dilemma ; all is over with him. This delighted Cleinias, whose laughter made Ctesippus ten times as uproarious ; but I cannot help thinking that the rogue must have picked up this answer from them ; for there has been no wisdom like theirs in our time.

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